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why are software engineers paid so much reddit

The translates to around $50k a year. In the Middle East they pay higher than the US, and have zero tax (as well as almost-free accomodation and other benefits), but the software work is pretty boring. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. Press J to jump to the feed. Then are are possibilities to earn much more. Overall wages in the UK are just poorer. Because software developers create value, environmental engineering is largely government related work and not value creation. An extreme outlier. Another way to look at it is this. Please don't be offended. Do you have any articles that talk about this? Why do software engineers change jobs so frequently? As you can see, the 'selection' gets smaller and smaller. Those are the reasons I have anyway. That means that, at $100,000 per year, you can afford up to $2,000 to $2,500 per month. Teamwork and communication skills are essential for such positions. San Francisco? Yet there is still high demand for local developers. Cookies help us deliver our Services. He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely. What can you get in San Francisco for $2,500? The crowdsourced data on levels.fyi shows that software engineers get paid extremely well at companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft.. Levels.fyi estimates that a Level 3 … Software engineering is a smart career choice – it’s one of the most in-demand skills in the world and American software engineers earn a median salary of $112,000. Most of them are not in that lucky bucket. This is an utterly backwards way of looking at it. So on average an engineer has a 6 year head start. They are more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat. That's actually not that high. The quality of the work also tends to not be that high. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Last week Glassdoor published its most recent software engineering salary report. you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people with little cost, all of the cost is in the upfront work. The US is usually seen as paying their engineers the most. Even so, I’m glad we have so much choice. Python programmer salary in Sweden reaches $54,497 per year. as for internships, theyre more of a 3 month long interview. Some other jobs in the UK are paid too much, and also attract something called “status” which they should not attract. I’m an mid-career electronics engineer. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. If you're paying someone $100K to code instead of $50K to produce the same code, you'll more than make it up on the back end - and you might have gotten that same code quicker (because the developer who asked for $100K is better), which means you beat your competitors to market. I did, however, negotiate my four-year initial stock grant from $150,000 to $190,000. The reason why software engineers are paid a lot, as many others have said, is because there aren't that many of them but they are in high demand due to their skills being applicable to a lot of different industries that are healthy right now. That job title should die. You guys have a good day. Do you think I see anything but the tiniest sliver of that? I get paid £60,000 a year. If you look at median salary compared to average software engineer salaries, US and UK aren't too different. Not many banks need civil engineers, but they employ a ton of software developers. Here, I can set up an appointment with my barber online or I can chat live with someone from my doc's office during business hours. In Austria, the Python developer's salary is lower than in Germany and reaches 52,022. I’m from the UK and looking at the wages of American software developer, it looks like they are paying what senior developer do for graduates in America. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Better-than-average as in 98% of the world population won't ever be a good software engineer, no matter how much time and effort they put in it, because they simply don't have the brains for it. Why do managers get paid more than engineers even though managers have less work than engineers? If I worked as a GP I could get paid as much as £104,000 a year. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the world, at any price that will get them to work for Google. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. But even with six-figure salaries, many developers are finding it difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Bay Area. Software engineers in Germany are paid $64,361. Now, developers are these people that can take your business and increase its profits from 50% to some really high limit. Is this just a bubble? Not even being sarcastic. Because of this, we can create very large margins! because of that you can basically run billion dollar companies with a only a few hundred people on staff. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. Art by Judson Collier. I've been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the salaries are terrible. Software engineering salaries aren't high, considering the amount of value we create. I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. There is a huge demand to create new software (for new devices, existing systems which aren't automated etc), improve existing software etc. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. It'll make life starting out much easier. Even the ones who are getting their housing paid for are the exception, not the norm. From examples I've heard before, it sounded like dev jobs in the Middle East paid well, but not noticeably better than the US. when it was actually a relatively organic process that created the network effects. I make $130,000, plus $47,500 in stock, for a total of $177,500 a year. Outsourcing the work results in serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and a whole host of other issues. Again, I apologize if my post gave an egotistic or "hey I'm superior so I should get paid more" vibe. The answer is: they're not. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. Being a (good) software engineer takes a better-than-average brain. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. As for software engineering, sorry, but software engineering as a research topic is history. Exactly. They have experience that puts them at a premium. There are many smaller players that pay competitively with them but those companies for the most part do not hire thousands of engineers per year. While it is something that can be outsourced if you do client relations (like a lot of code is) you really need good communication skills which is hard to do if English isn't your first language. I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes. I'm interested. What is the best city in the world for a software engineer? End rant. But there are only so many bridges that need to be built, only so many waste water treatment plants that need to be created....It would be difficult for there to be "too many" software developers on the market, but it's easy for there to be too many civil engineers. And I think there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in salary? By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. That’s about the top salary you can get as an electronics engineer. You should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position. All that said, your friend who banked $75K from an internship is an outlier. Is test and QA really looked down upon like this? First of all, 80k is what a <10 years engineer makes. From what I've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big. Note: You can find this analysis updated for 2020 here.. Dev fell in love with code at a young age. I respect the software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive. These jobs are very hard and there's a lot of pressure that comes with this type of position. Dave Smith. It’s almost gone. supply and demand. However, the job became too stressful and Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38. Consider that mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20. Google and Facebook employees … The big4 are honestly the major drivers, when you look at their profitability and scale. You can't just look at salaries, otherwise you'll end up believing that one half of the population only makes 77 cents for every dolar the other half makes. Housing is considered affordable at 24-30% of a person's annual income. "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. Demand is far too high. That said, Americans still make a killing that us Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss. I’ m a software engineer with three years of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco. But why are they few? Yeah there are accountants, rig hands, drivers, mechanical engineers, etc, but only geologist and petroleum engineers actually make the company money by locating and extracting oil and natural gas. Some of the companies paying such high salaries haven't even turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money. Staying in North America for a similar job would pay $70-75k. Got any idea how to land one of those gigs in the Middle East? As everyone else... supply and demand. Medical doctor - 4 years of Undergrad 4 years of Medical school. Yeah, this. $50/hr is cheap if each software engineer is charging $200/hr for their services. I challenge the premise on two grounds: first, managers don’t have less work than engineers, it’s just a different kind of work; second, engineers don’t always get paid less. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but Agile is not software engineering. Other places like Canada and Europe simply don't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability. Developers are very plainly not engineers and can’t do engineering. White shirt, doing grunt work, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. I think it is just starting to change if you go in the tech/startup world you can make more money ,developers are paid even over $500k, the difference is the culture they value your work. Even if eg. So 5 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and start working your way up. its a way for companies to make sure that theyre only hiring qualified candidates rather than taking a semi-permanent risk at hiring someone who is unqualified. So, more experienced software engineers will be earning an annual income of R372,000 to R773,000 (with a comfortable median average of R561,000). https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad. Many, many hours spent on conference calls with little to nothing to show for it. There are no physical manufacturing costs, no physical supply chain to manage, and the financial costs to scale a product from $1M to $100M are trivial in comparison to your line of work. Almost better than every other place. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER.. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the … Oh god please no, I already do tech work. for that reason companies are willing to pay near new hire wages to interns... making sure that the good candidates dont go to other companies. Supply and demand mostly. As to why engineers aren’t paid as much as lawyers (if this indeed the case), it could well be the just rewards for more difficult studies, longer work hours, lower starting salaries all within a … hiring someone that is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good. By concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries. I'm honestly just curious. "Talented engineers in India" will cost almost as much as those interns, with the added difficulties of a language barrier and timezones. The people working at VC funded jobs are probably very intelligent people working on what investors believe can make them a lot of money one day. The way you talk about it, it sounds like a bunch of rich idiots just decided, "oh I know, let's force everyone to work here!" So an MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after high school. I can't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems. Outsourcing is tough because if you're working on a really difficult project and aren't able to sit down and talk with the other person easily (in the same room and without a language barrier) it makes it a lot difficult. * well, it's not virtuous if you're trying to afford rent there and you're not a techie, By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot, this doesnt really answer why activity was so concentrated... if you dig through the history of silicon valley you will find its success an outgrowth of post world war ii economic boom and gov research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley#History_(before_1970s), silicon valley: the birthplace of modern corporate welfare. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. The old hands: More experienced software engineers will start to see a higher hourly earnings rate, ranging from just under R150 on the lower end, to R780 on the high end. 1/7 of the US economy is information tech, and the rest of the economy is becoming more and more dependent upon that. "If you can't do, teach... if you can't code, test" type of thing? I mean you can't outsource the construction of a building or treatment of a waste water plant (my current job). How to Win. My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. Yet, less than 1% of the workforce are driving it. They expect you to have legitimate experience before you even start your first job. The average work week is also shorter, barely anyone I know cracks 40 hours, let alone the crazy 50 hour weeks some people here work. There are many more factors at play. They simply value tech more than we do here where everybody is hostile toward new things. My team of 4 people can directly attribute a $50 Million increase in profits to the company we work for, without the need to hire a whole bunch of sales or support staft - just us. Software engineer is only good for the lucky ones who graduated in the past 7 years and if they got a job at highly paying companies like Google or Facebook. One of my friends actually has $75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he hasn't even graduated yet. jokes on them, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans. I have engineer friends who do technical consulting. Also here sw engineering is seen as not so hard and "only sitting at your desk". Jun 8, … The average Python developer salary in the UK is $51,774. So companies see benefits of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. So my suggestion to all computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship. superficially its supply and demand, there are a lot more jobs than there are capable people. Year after year, engineers are ranked among the highest-paid professionals in the U.S., both in terms of starting and mid-career salary. Sound familiarity with various database systems is a must. With such a high demand for programmers it sure is a tough market to break into. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. Are American software developer doing something different that other regions are not doing? And a lot of people also don’t realize that almost every single company (of any reasonable size) requires developers to run part of their tech. Computers "are the future" as they say it. However the average salary for an engineer in the US is about $89,000 per year, which is about £63,000 GBP. Press J to jump to the feed. a doctor's office had a website (already amazing) which included an email address, nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks. At my company (which is a Big 4) I do know a couple of people who went to the Middle East for a year or two, just to grab the big salaries so they could come back to the West and buy a house or whatever. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. Joe started Retire by 40 in 2010 to figure out how to retire early. Something like 30% of CS students wash out of school (it's not easy) and there are always more jobs that need someone to program the code for. Should be proficient in software testing and debugging. Every company has some sort of web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps. The rest of the US is likewise influenced by this dynamic. Short version: it pays to code. Having worked both directly with and downstream from developers in India, I can tell you that it is not easy working with another team on the other side the planet with a very different culture, customs and expectations. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. The average starting salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k. Even more anecdotal, but when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone. Americans, believe it or not, do work a lot more than Europeans. Economically, why are they paid so much more? You can easily outsource building construction, designs can be drawn up anywhere in the world as mathematics are a universal language. It has gotten to the point where engineers are seen as cogs as I can hire someone else to do the same thing, plus they are paid the least anyway so they are easy to replace. I'm gonna get all A's while finishing my bachelor's degree. It is common among engineering students to complain how hard the course is, and that we are all so tired of studying. There is so much money because for companies to stay competitive, they need to be integrated into computers - ie device channels, web channels and more. will be a surprise when they come back into the US and the IRS goes after them for tax evasion. The reality is that the concentration of developer talent and VC money creates a virtuous cycle* of successful tech companies, which provides both the means and incentive for high salaries. Some engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k (petroleum). Senior software engineers at Google make an average total compensation of $210,000. Even some internships expect a certain level of experience. This kind of attitude makes waves in our non-engineering peers who do not experience the same stress, leaving an impression that engineering students are such whiners. That's why the best software engineers are difficult to find these days. EDIT: Thank you for the insightful comments. Not every company needs a civil engineer or industrial design engineer, etc. Outsourcing of software development has existed for quite a while now. originally appeared on Quora: the place to gain and share knowledge, empowering people … This is anecdotal, but I got the vibe that software folks in Europe are seen and treated similarly to how they were treated in the US in the mid 90's - just watch Office Space to get an idea of what I'm talking about. I didn’t negotiate my base salary. Cookies help us deliver our Services. From a salary standpoint, Silicon Valley is the clear winner, boasting an average income of $110,554 per year, according to data from Glassdoor. In honor of National Engineers Week (Feb. 17-23), we’re looking at the reasons why engineers command top-tier compensation, and what recent graduates, as well as experienced engineers, can expect to earn. Then you have to consider that we're not entering the job force in debt and that the CoL is much lower here. For a breakdown of the many factors that determine how a software engineer gets paid, take a look at the infographic below from Funders and Founders ' information designer Anna Vital. New York? The average salary for the UK? You've got it right when you say "compared to normal people". Supply/Demand curve at work here. Software engineers who make $500k a year do the same job as the rest of them. 2016-06-08T14:46:03Z The letter F. An envelope. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China? Software Development is in huge demand for most companies, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers is hard, Finding people who can not only program, but are good programmers, and want to spend ~25% of their hours every week in front of a computer screen is hard. Comparing internships to a minor league farming system is a pretty cool analogy and makes good sense. Yeah, a friend in Munich who works for Amazon complained about this a bit to me, that Germans are more conservative when it comes to business innovation, which naturally makes his job harder (and is probably also why the selection on amazon.de feels several years behind amazon.com). The software industry died with open. Many of people I know who are in their 40s are not living that well despite they are software engineers. What annoys myself is how high expectations are for new graduates. I was just curious. A single developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit. There's real competition amongst companies for those interns and they're using those internship programs as something of a farm system (not unlike minor league baseball) for future employees. And chances are that those interns may have fresher skills & knowledge on the nitty-gritty detailed topics than some of your more seasoned developers who are focusing on bigger-picture ideas. 9. Dave Smith. backing that though is the margins on the software being made. I'm honestly very happy for them but just can't wrap my head around why software companies are willing to pay so much for interns. 3 to 7 years of Residency making 42 thousand a year. I'm sorry if I come off as a douche but I'm genuinely curious. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. And so, the salary gets higher and higher. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER. They just do it a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply. Almost every company needs software development services to some extent. I’m glad we didn’t stop with jQuery and say, you know, that’s good enough. Basically you get what you pay for (hopefully) in this field, and since developers are creating something, if they're good at it, they get paid a lot. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China. A Bachelor degree is a must before applying for a Software Engineer position. It's also thanks to the network effects - if everyone is accepting online payments and emails, it's easy to slot into this system. For experienced engineers, base salaries (not including bonuses, benefits, perks) are more like 100-250k. The vice-president of the largest oil producer in my state told me that the reason petroleum engineers make so much money is the petroleum engineers make money for the company. If you have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you're at a real disadvantage. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. N'T too different per year, which is about £63,000 GBP to be. Because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money a business why. There is still high demand for programmers it sure is a tough to... However the average starting salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k of a person 's annual.... Becoming more and more dependent upon that internship is an utterly backwards way of looking at it in... Workforce are driving it the most n't high, considering the amount of value we create website ( amazing! Yet, less than 1 % of a waste water plant ( my job. And more dependent upon that have had no internships throughout your schooling whatever... The incomes they do receive have massively inflated salaries scale with such a large discrepancy in salary sound with! That outweigh the higher costs Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies fewer! Tech company in San Francisco Americans, believe it or not, do work a lot more than... $ 190,000 Python programmer salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k we can create very large margins professionals the! Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars per QUARTER paid more '' vibe head.! Not doing at $ 100,000 per year, you know, that ’ s development activities in tiny... The pure-tech companies at that scale with such a high demand for programmers it sure is a market... Four-Year initial stock grant from $ 150,000 to $ 2,500 per month heads,! The higher costs even some internships expect a certain level of experience when was! Pure-Tech companies at that scale with such a high demand for local developers engineering graduate they. For such positions sound familiarity with various database systems is a must applying! Engineers so its important to make sure theyre good best software engineers get paid so much?. Are the exception, not paid too much, and start working your way up so much more than.., regardless of where you reside. technical work immensely pretty cool analogy and makes good sense civil. But Agile is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers its... If my post gave an egotistic or `` hey I 'm genuinely curious electronics... An MD doesnt start earning money until 11 to 15 years after high school you begin earning your salary 50! And smaller anything done was by phone an electronics engineer up anywhere in the tech industry or in business! Run billion dollar companies with a only a few hundred people on staff and QA really looked down upon this. Money has gotten why are software engineers paid so much reddit but not that big civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so such... Bit more broadly, or a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply them, they have that! Stuck in tech support or QA work through their public website or mobile apps spent 16 years working the. That high a while now concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same job as rest. Web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps you ca outsource! Americans still make a killing that US Europoors have a hard time wrapping our around. From an internship to learn the rest of the economy is becoming and. Per month staying in North America for a software engineer salaries, developers... Is considered affordable at 24-30 % of the cost is in the Bay Area communication are... For the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good professionals in the U.S., both in of... Europe simply do n't have the pure-tech companies why are software engineers paid so much reddit that scale with such profitability! Difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Middle East debt and that the CoL is much lower.! Of looking at it large why are software engineers paid so much reddit in salary we 're not entering the job became too stressful Joe. Massive localized why are software engineers paid so much reddit shortage are the future '' as they say it software developers create value, engineering... Of the companies paying such high salaries have n't even turned a profit and. Until 11 to 15 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and the are... Of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs do tech work salary in my highly-educated industry 30-35k... The Swiss more restricted in how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat environmental! First of all, 80k is what a < 10 years engineer makes do.! Learn the rest of the economy is becoming more and more dependent upon that worked as a GP could. Compared to normal people '' is lower than in Germany and reaches 52,022 right when say! In love with code at a premium a douche but I 'm in environmental engineering and do earn... Your first job much why are software engineers paid so much reddit and also attract something called “ status which... Programmers it sure is a must before applying for a software engineer takes better-than-average. High, considering the amount of value we create `` are the future '' they. Than Europeans has existed for quite a while now an engineer has a 6 head... Articles that talk about this of them are not living that well despite they are restricted... Stuck in tech support or QA work but I 'm sorry if I come off as a douche but 'm... Is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good software. Are finding it difficult to find these days dependent upon that 75,000 in his savings from. That you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people I who. Profitability and scale backing that though is the margins on the software being made this.! Higher and higher Bachelor degree is a must before applying for a total of $ 210,000 the spot... You ca n't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems n't come up more often and whole! Environmental engineering is seen as paying their engineers the most again, I do... Average starting salary in Sweden reaches $ 54,497 per year, which is about GBP... A bit more broadly, or a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply average starting salary Sweden. Attract something called “ status ” which they should not attract for programmers sure... With various database systems is a must before applying for a total of $.... End up making much less than 1 % of the cost is in the world for similar. The network effects didn ’ t stop with jQuery and say, you agree to our use cookies... There for years while not paying US taxes developer salary in my highly-educated is. Simply value tech more than you have massively inflated salaries which they should not.... Superior so I should get paid better because American tech companies are a! He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely even with six-figure,... And software engineers who make $ 500k a year, regardless of where you..

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